Third Edition

Moderator: BrilliantRain

 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Some questions bout 3E

09 Mar 2016, 05:03

Hello again (I took quite a long break from the forum) in the dawn of new age (3 edition, well for me it's a dawn anyway).
I decided to read whole third edition core book (a frustrating task, and I'm already skipping some charms) and I cannot exactly understand (so far) 2 things...

1) How the Malfeas movement work?!?
Well I think I know how it works, but I have troubles accepting this fact :(
Can I really cover a distance between two distance ranges in one move? I mean even from long range to medium range? Even from extreme range to long range?

2)Fists of Iron Technique say they reduce enemy soak, the amount is based on Intimacy... but I don't know how it increases the reduction. 1 soak per intimacy? Does intimacy strength (minor, major, defining) count?

I would be more than happy if someone could explain it. :)


Oh by the way, if someone could point to me the rule that explains how I should interpret stauff like Fists of Iron Technique I will be most grateful. :)
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
Daerim
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 981
Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 15:35
Title: Dawn Caste
Exalt: Solar
Fighting Style: Solar Melee
Artifact: The Tabar Perihelion
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: Some questions bout 3E

09 Mar 2016, 12:12

I'm not sure what Malfeas movement is, unfortunately, so I can't help you there. Could you give the page number or section of what you're looking at?

Intimacies, however, have a mechanical "value" addressed in the Intimacies section (p 170 of the backer PDF). Minor Intimacies have a value of 2, Major is worth 3 and Defining is worth 4. Any time an Intimacy is referenced by the rules as a number, that's what they mean.

So if a character is an Essence 2 Solar using Fists of Iron on an enemy they hate (Major Tie: That Guy [Hate]), making a Withering attack, the target's soak would be reduced by 5 (Essence 2 + Major Intimacy 3).
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

09 Mar 2016, 16:35

Sorry if I weren't clear, I didn't mean "Malfeas movement" I meant "how movement work" I just am so confused about it that I wanted to write something along the line "How in the Malfeas (Hell) Movement work" page 197.
Sorry for the confusion, that's what happens when someone not native to english wants to use idioms. :?

So, maybe example of Combat movement will clarify:
When I am 2 ranges away from a foe (which means medium distance I believe) and my foe is stationary (shooting me with arrows or balistae) I need to spend 2 actions on movement to get to him? Which means like 6 seconds considering what they wrote in the core book? I have troubles accepting this kind of speed just like that... Not that solars can't cover this distance with charms... but that's the problem... Charms... I'm used to 2 edition, and this kind of speed measurement...
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
Daerim
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 981
Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 15:35
Title: Dawn Caste
Exalt: Solar
Fighting Style: Solar Melee
Artifact: The Tabar Perihelion
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: Some questions bout 3E

10 Mar 2016, 11:59

Oooh, ok. I understand now.

You seem to have it correctly, but consider what the range bands represent. The bands aren't supposed to be well defined distances, they're more dramatically important than discreet ranges. You're not in the medium range because you're 10m away, you're there because you have to shout to be heard. It's not well defined on purpose.

But looking at the ranges implied, medium probably extends out to at least 30m (max useful throwing range), but could be 100m (shouting distance) or even 180m (depending on how you measure English longbow ranges). So in six seconds you might objectively cover between 30m and 180m, which is the difference between 11mph (18kph) and 67mph (108kph).

Usain Bolt, for reference, can move at about 10 meters per second (he's faster than that in shorter races, a little slower in longer ones). So 30m in 6 seconds is about half as fast as the fastest man alive. That would mean that in the 30-60m range, six seconds is probably reasonable, considering that Exalted generally assumes a better athletic performance baseline than the real world.

To compare, the 2e Dash action would have an average person (Dex 2), healthy and with no armor penalty, running at about 8m per second or 18mph (29kph). That's 6 + 2 (Dex) yards per tick, which is a single second.

People in Exalted are pretty awesome athletes in all editions of Exalted. 3e might stretch that a little, but it's more or less the same as 2e. It does have an objectively very strange Doppler effect, where the closer to your goal you get, the slower you move. But that's the abstraction.

But at this point, I'm just rambling. Does that help any?
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

10 Mar 2016, 14:38

Yeah, in 2e it was also high speed, but that was still a bit lower than now. My brain is having troubles accepting that everyone (including mortals) is this fast. Well maybe I'm just being picky, but I kind of like complicated (not too much complicated)/realistic (hahahaha) rules to follow.
Also I had difficulties imagining how long distances this could mean, so thanks for that. :)
Anyway I will meditate upon this for some time, meditation always helps me to accept unacceptable. :)
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
Daerim
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 981
Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 15:35
Title: Dawn Caste
Exalt: Solar
Fighting Style: Solar Melee
Artifact: The Tabar Perihelion
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: Some questions bout 3E

11 Mar 2016, 02:53

There's nothing stopping you from adding in a range band or two if you feel that makes the game more realistic. Splitting up medium into "throwing range" and "shouting range" or something similar would cover the main issue, I think.

By the base game, though, travel times in combat are abstracted a lot like travel in the Wyld has been abstracted in the Fair Folk rules. The range bands are basically the number of Waypoints you need to travel to get where you're going. The shorter bands are more important to the action, because you're likely to abstract the a big chunk of the long sprint already, instead of giving the archer 20+ shots (and rolling each one) as the character charges them from 180 meters away at 8m per second, while a little extra distance can be very important in a sword fight.
 
User avatar
Dinosaur
Essence 10
Essence 10
Posts: 10456
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 00:46
Title: Social Justice Kaiju
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Natural Weapons
Artifact: Audient Quill
Location: Most Emphatically NOT in the Wyld

Re: Some questions bout 3E

13 Mar 2016, 10:54

Also, the objective time taken up by each round can vary. The game does not feature exact long ticks, but does note that cutting an army to bits might take a bit longer than attacking one target.
I write stories. No, really.
 
User avatar
BrilliantRain
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5362
Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 14:50
Title: The City of Mod
Exalt: Alchemical
Fighting Style: Primordial-Machine Weaving
Artifact: Eye of Autochthon
Location: Nurad
Contact:

Re: Some questions bout 3E

13 Mar 2016, 13:21

Something else to note is that you can only move one range band per turn, unless you are Rushing or Disengaging.
Avatar by Girl Genius

Mod Text is in Green

Do you have enough Tools, King of All Craftsmen?
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

14 Mar 2016, 07:06

So unless specifically noted, 1 range band per action. Got it. Thanks.
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

29 Mar 2016, 07:56

Another (stupid) question about movement.
Is it possible to catch (without charms) an archer who is shooting you from Long Range and moving away each time you come closer?
I think normal movement rules make it impossible to catch him (even when you ride a mount).

Example:
Round1: Player1 (P1) is advancing toward Player2 (P2), they are at medium range, P2 takes Aim Action and moves away, which makes distance long.
Round2: P1 is moving closer again (medium distance), P2 shoots him in the face and moves away (long distance again).

And each round situation repeats... Am I missing something?


And a question regarding "Hold at Bay" (page 204).
Everything is quite clear, except last sentence: "If the character chooses to attack her target before the rounds are up, he may defend normally."
So When I Hold at Bay someone I can (almost certainly) kill him when he tries to escape, but if he do not, then I can only make normal attack? Does this attack at least gain damage benefit if it hits?


And now I think I found something strange in Social Combat (page 221, Overturning Influence).
So someone Persuaded me to do A, then someone is trying to make me do B. If I want to do A then I only have to find proper Intimacy that supports it, but if I want to do B then I must also spend a Willpower (and find proper Intimacy).
Something's wrong here... what if I don't have proper Intimacy to do any of these? Or I have only Intimacy to do B but 0 Willpower?
I think rules are flawed here...
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
BrilliantRain
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5362
Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 14:50
Title: The City of Mod
Exalt: Alchemical
Fighting Style: Primordial-Machine Weaving
Artifact: Eye of Autochthon
Location: Nurad
Contact:

Re: Some questions bout 3E

31 Mar 2016, 21:34

You can't move while taking an Aim action. So the way it works is like this:

Archer is at long range and has surprise and spends the requisite aim time out of combat. JB is rolled when the arrow is fired.

Round 1:
Archer shoots you and moves back 1 band. Now at Extreme range.
You give chase. Now at Long range.

Round 2:
Archer spends turn aiming another shot. Still at Long range
You continue giving chase. Now at Medium Range.

Round 3:
Archer shoots you and moves back 1 band. Now at Long range.
You continue giving chase. Now at Medium Range.

Round 4:
Archer spends turn aiming another shot. Still at Medium range
You continue giving chase. Now at Short Range.
Because you are now at short range, you can use the Rush action. With a successful opposed Dex+Ath roll, if the archer moves back, you'll reflexively move with them.

Round 5:
Archer shoots you and moves back 1 band. You Reflexively follow Still at Short range.
You continue giving chase. Now at Close Range and you can stab the archer with your sword.
To escape, the archer will need to use a Disengage Action.

As for hold at bay, the way it works is that, you hold the person for a certain amount of time. If you can convince them to surrender, fine. If they try to escape, you get a significant attack benefit, also fine. If you wait until the hold at bay turns are over and win the JB roll, then you get to launch an ambush attack, really good. However, if you just want to stab the guy in the back, why bother using Hold at Bay? Why not just ambush him normally and let the fight play out? As such, it shouldn't matter what happens since you shouldn't be trying to stab the guy, unless they try to escape.

Social Influence is set up like that so that, after spending a lot of time and effort Persuading someone to do something, an Eclipse can't just waltz in and undo all your work with a coupe of rolls, they've actually got to really work at it.
Avatar by Girl Genius

Mod Text is in Green

Do you have enough Tools, King of All Craftsmen?
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

01 Apr 2016, 05:12

Ok, thanks for the Archer problem explanation, I think I missed that you cannot move when you Aim.
Yeah, I guess you are also right with Hold at Bay, but I wasn't sure how to understand rules here.

But in regards of Social Influence I didn't mean that it's hard to change the decision (though it is), I meant that it is possible to get in a situation in which rules forbid you from making a choice between A and B.
I mean, lets say a Lunar makes Dawn declare a war on Mask of Winters, but after that (Dawn is ready for war) Sidereal makes him first forget any applicable Intimacy and then succeds at convincing Dawn to change course of action, but Dawn does not have any Intimacies to choose War or whatever Sidereal wants him to do. In rules whether Dawn chooses A action (war) or B (Sidereal action) he must use Intimacy (in the latter he also needs to spend Willpower).
In my opinion, if we were following rules to the letter, the Dawn will stand in place until something happens to form appropriate Intimacy so he can make a choice.
Or if he have Intimacy to do what Sidereal asks for, but he lacks Willpower.
Or maybe again I missed something. :)
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
BrilliantRain
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5362
Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 14:50
Title: The City of Mod
Exalt: Alchemical
Fighting Style: Primordial-Machine Weaving
Artifact: Eye of Autochthon
Location: Nurad
Contact:

Re: Some questions bout 3E

01 Apr 2016, 20:47

For someone to persuade you to do something, they need to invoke one of your intimacies. This is true regardless of whether you've already been persuaded or not. So, if you they don't have an argument that triggers one of your intimacies, then they're gonna have to do some Instill actions to create a relevant Intimacy before they can convince you of anything.

Now, in your example, if the Dawn doesn't have an intimacy applicable to what the Sid wants them to do, then the Sid's persuasion attempt automatically FAILS. Well, barring charms, but those usually say something like "treat target as if they had an intimacy of such and such at a particular rating." so the whole intimacy thing still applies.

I also tend to doubt that a Sidereal can just pop up and make a Dawn simply forget that they like fighting or whatever, but, if, for whatever reason, a character lacks any intimacies, then they can't be Persuaded to do things. You need to use Instill Actions to give them intimacies first.

Basically, you can't get into a Decision Point unless you've got some relevant intimacies in the first place.
Avatar by Girl Genius

Mod Text is in Green

Do you have enough Tools, King of All Craftsmen?
 
User avatar
Daerim
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 981
Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 15:35
Title: Dawn Caste
Exalt: Solar
Fighting Style: Solar Melee
Artifact: The Tabar Perihelion
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: Some questions bout 3E

02 Apr 2016, 12:14

Note that you only get to apply a defensive Intimacy for "free" to bolster your Resolve, not to shut down influence cold. In the Decision Point, the Solar would have to spend Willpower to negate the Sidereal's influence at the last moment with the Intimacy that allowed the Lunar to convince them to go to war.
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

03 Apr 2016, 05:44

Either I wasn't clear, or I cannot understand explanation. :)
I know that without Intimacy you cannot make someone do something (if it's going to bother them). So a Lunar exploited an Intimacy to convince Dawn to fight Masks. Then Sidereal both Instilled in Dawn Intimacy against this war and lowered Intimacy Lunar exploited (to the point of no existence - no Intimacy). Now Dawn have 2 options, 1 agree with Sid and spend Willpower (he have Intimacy to do this), 2 continue his war efforts (but he lacks Intimacy to do so he can't right?)
What if the Dawn don't have Willpower to make his choice? 1 require him to spend Willpower he don't have, while 2 require Intimacy he don't have.

The same goes if chain of events happen to make Dawn lose Intimacy to continue war efforts, while he don't have Intimacy not to (so he don't actually care at all) and Sid tells him to stop. Since stopping his efforts are not going to cost him anything, the Influence is valid (I think).

While Storyteller can say Dawn don't have to continue his war efforts (because he lacks Intimacy to do so, the Lunars Influence has ended), or that he can continue them (because why not), but rules are unclear for me.

Daerim, I think rules for Overturning Influence (page 221) said something else. Normally I agree, you use Willpower only in Decision Point, but in this case it is Decision Point to choose one of two affecting Influences, choosing older influence is easier (no need for Willpower) while choosing new Influence requires you to spend Willpower. Both must be supported by Intimacies. Problem is only when Dawn lacks Willpower and/or (due to some social combat) don't have relevant Intimacies anymore (but he used to have them).

While I agree that this situation will come out rarerly (or actually never) I still think of it as a hole in the rules (or I just don't understand something).
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."
 
User avatar
Daerim
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 981
Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 15:35
Title: Dawn Caste
Exalt: Solar
Fighting Style: Solar Melee
Artifact: The Tabar Perihelion
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: Some questions bout 3E

03 Apr 2016, 14:11

Ah, I hadn't seen that.

But ok, lets walk through this from a narrative perspective. I think it makes more sense that way.

Dawn is just hanging out with his horsebros in Marukan. Lunar shows up and starts railing against the Mask and how Thorns is a huge threat. Dawn is convinced that the threat is imminent and he needs to round up his horsebros and do something about it. Then Sidereal shows up and tries to convince Dawn that he needs allies and a plan to take on a Deathlord.

Under normal conditions, Dawn has to spend some Willpower to break his word, change course with his men and stop doing something his lover really wants to happen. Maybe Dawn does, maybe he doesn't. "Stay the course" will win out without that act of will, however.

If Dawn is at 0 Willpower, though, there are a couple of differences. The most important is that a character at 0 Willpower is tapped out. They can't bring their strongest magics to bear, or even their best mundane effort, and they're incredibly easy to influence. This is a character who has likely not slept for days, consistently hasn't been able to cut loose (either with a Limit Break or a good Stunt) and has accomplished nothing of personal significance recently and/or is under such a phenomenal amount of stress that they've spent themselves into the ground (possibly despite all those sources of Willpower). Under those conditions, clinging to your convictions, or your faith in a lover's advice, is likely the last thing left to you in a world out to batter you down.

The first order of business for Sidereal should likely be to convince Dawn to go to bed (likely not hard to do, since Dawn can't bring any Intimacies to bear in the Decision Point), then try to convince him again in the morning when he's thinking straight (and has a point of Willpower). Maybe sneak an "I have your best interests at heart" Instill action in there somewhere. Also, Dawn might want to rethink his relationship with Lunar, since Lunar was more worried about seeing Dawn off to war, rather than seeing him get some rest.

So while there is a 'hole' in that a character with 0 Willpower cannot be influenced to change an instilled course of action, that isn't necessarily unrealistic. Or at least, not inauthentic. At least, in my opinion.
 
User avatar
BrilliantRain
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5362
Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 14:50
Title: The City of Mod
Exalt: Alchemical
Fighting Style: Primordial-Machine Weaving
Artifact: Eye of Autochthon
Location: Nurad
Contact:

Re: Some questions bout 3E

04 Apr 2016, 00:03

Ok, I think I understand now. Thanks for explaining. I agree that the rules don't specify exactly what happens here, but, in 3e, there are a whole bunch of edge cases that the rules don't cover and individual tables are expected to be able to figure things out for themselves.

In this case, I'd let the Dawn just decide which they were going to follow or, if the Dawn was an NPC, I'd figure out which worked better for the plot. But you don't have to do it that way.
Avatar by Girl Genius

Mod Text is in Green

Do you have enough Tools, King of All Craftsmen?
 
User avatar
Winaran
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: 23 Jan 2010, 13:11
Title: The Chosen of the Demon City
Exalt: Infernal
Fighting Style: Melee and Infernal Hero Style
Artifact: The Most Awesome Muscles Ever
Location: Malfeas / Poland

Re: Some questions bout 3E

05 Apr 2016, 06:03

I just wanted to understand how rules works here, so I will be prepared for such a thing during the game. :)
I had long break from storytelling, so at least I don't want to lose time for examining rules in detail during a game (it would slow a game to a stop).
Thanks for help, now it should be easier for me to decide what to do in similar situations. :)
"With a few specific necromantic exceptions, it's pretty difficult to win a battle if you're dead."

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests