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Yozi Theme Contention

11 Oct 2016, 14:01

As we round the bend and remember that Infernals are years upon years off for the new edition of Exalted, I thought that it might be worth taking stock of how individual assumptions of what each Yozi is about, as this changed between first edition's Games of Divinity descriptions (and the later characterization of Kimbery in Blood and Salt) and MoEP: Infernals.  For example, Malfeas was originally described as being patiently malicious and having a level of cruelty in his machinations that other Yozis did not care to enact, for whatever reason.  This is vastly different, and in my case preferred over, the later klazomaniac Primordial whose fetich disapproves of his involvement in the performing arts (and his stance on them stolen from the overall universal Yozi view on the arts in question).  Adorjan hasn't really changed, but GoD Ebby and 2e Ebby?  Worlds apart.

As noted, I've tended to go back to GoD more for the preferred version of any given Yozi, except where they didn't exist.  I think that the Ebon Dragon would be best off being a mysterious investigator into the mysteries of death and forbidden mystic arts rather than everyone's nemesis, especially since 2e gave us another Yozi, Szoreny, who seemed like that would be much more his bag and was not already described in a prior book as being something else.  I also plotted out some half-done schema of old Charms where the creepy and terribly crap in Ebby's Charm set got split between Malfeas and Kimbery, while Nemesis Self Imagined Anew and anything stemming from it went to Szoreny.  I didn't quite get up on filling up the voids, though, so it's mostly just a guidepost for my future thoughts.

(If you've only experienced 2e, still share.  No one's going to get that upset among the grognards, I'd imagine.)
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

13 Oct 2016, 19:16

I just wrote three paragraphs of detailed opinions on this topic.
I wrote homebrew anima effects for Malfean Infernals.
I gave my whole opinion on the Ebon Dragon Vs Szonery.
And then my login timed out.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

14 Oct 2016, 13:14

For the most part, I'm content with stories and games where the Yozi's get the definition they need to create an interesting, relevant, specific story.  On the whole, I enjoyed 1e's Chthulu-like depiction of the Yozi.  2e's Yozis were less interesting but more satisfying in their cartoony evil.  But then, I've always enjoyed the classic White Wolf gameline approach of having nearly every faction have their pros and cons but there's always a bad guy everyone agrees on (White Spiral Dancers, Nephandi, etc.).  

I'll admit, my favorite bit of 2e lore around Yozi's was the concept of approaching them as corporations.  As entities and beings whose mindset needs to be understood organizationally rather than just personally.  It was a nice twist that I got a lot of mileage out of.

For 3e, my hope is that we 'know' less of the Yozi and there's more room for individual ST interpretation.  While I prefer my Yozi to be adversaries you feel awesome at overthrowing, others clearly enjoy their Infernals as PCs and having weird, bizarre and fun (for them) interactions with Hell, etc.  I hope 3e gives us room for both.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

18 Oct 2016, 00:50

I've heard that there's an intent to focus more on demons than the Yozis that they compose.  It's off to a good start, too, since Octavian is "only" a second circle, but can potentially dismember Ahlat, who is a directional war god.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

20 Oct 2016, 01:32

GentlemanBesly wrote:
I just wrote three paragraphs of detailed opinions on this topic.
I wrote homebrew anima effects for Malfean Infernals.
I gave my whole opinion on the Ebon Dragon Vs Szonery.
And then my login timed out.

ouch.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

20 Oct 2016, 01:35

Dinosaur wrote:
I've heard that there's an intent to focus more on demons than the Yozis that they compose.  It's off to a good start, too, since Octavian is "only" a second circle, but can potentially dismember Ahlat, who is a directional war god.

This is what I'm hoping for too.  More focus on Liger and Erembour and less on Malfeas and the Ebon Dragon will work better for the game, I think.  I like the Yozis better when they're weird landscapes and strange weather than when they're "people."
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

20 Oct 2016, 17:36

BrilliantRain wrote:
Dinosaur wrote:
I've heard that there's an intent to focus more on demons than the Yozis that they compose.  It's off to a good start, too, since Octavian is "only" a second circle, but can potentially dismember Ahlat, who is a directional war god.

This is what I'm hoping for too.  More focus on Liger and Erembour and less on Malfeas and the Ebon Dragon will work better for the game, I think.  I like the Yozis better when they're weird landscapes and strange weather than when they're "people."

I basically want more focus on Ligier, less on Malfeas and more on the Ebon Dragon. I find that some of the yozi work better as characters and others work better at landscapes/features, even though they're all both.
Take Adorjan; when I was getting into Exalted lore I didn't even know she had other souls. I thought she was just the silent wind. But that was okay, cause the silent wind was hilariously awesome and has a really meaningful explanation behind it. 
Or Ebon Dragon. He's Aku. Aku needs victims and minions. His souls are his minions and everyone is his victim. I like having people interact with ED himself as he's a really fun [awful awful awful person] character. And if done right he straddles the line between funny saturday morning cartoon villain and legitimately terrifying the way few others can.
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I don't necessarily want less of Malfeas, It's just that he is such a big deal that I feel he should be treated as such. Let him be the glorious devil tyrant he used to be, not nuclear Karkat.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

21 Oct 2016, 01:23

GentlemanBesly wrote:
BrilliantRain wrote:
Dinosaur wrote:
I've heard that there's an intent to focus more on demons than the Yozis that they compose.  It's off to a good start, too, since Octavian is "only" a second circle, but can potentially dismember Ahlat, who is a directional war god.

This is what I'm hoping for too.  More focus on Liger and Erembour and less on Malfeas and the Ebon Dragon will work better for the game, I think.  I like the Yozis better when they're weird landscapes and strange weather than when they're "people."

I basically want more focus on Ligier, less on Malfeas and more on the Ebon Dragon. I find that some of the yozi work better as characters and others work better at landscapes/features, even though they're all both.
Take Adorjan; when I was getting into Exalted lore I didn't even know she had other souls. I thought she was just the silent wind. But that was okay, cause the silent wind was hilariously awesome and has a really meaningful explanation behind it. 
Or Ebon Dragon. He's Aku. Aku needs victims and minions. His souls are his minions and everyone is his victim. I like having people interact with ED himself as he's a really fun [awful awful awful person] character. And if done right he straddles the line between funny saturday morning cartoon villain and legitimately terrifying the way few others can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7N67hn0TlA
I don't necessarily want less of Malfeas, It's just that he is such a big deal that I feel he should be treated as such. Let him be the glorious devil tyrant he used to be, not nuclear Karkat.

I tend to still leave the Ebon Dragon in the background, on the grounds that he's usually plumbing the depths of the line between life and death in a way that only a shadow made of every living thing and is preoccupied with doomed lovers can be.  Then, though, we're talking about two very different Ebon Dragons; as noted, I don't go by 2e for him at all.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

21 Oct 2016, 18:36

GentlemanBesly wrote:
BrilliantRain wrote:
Dinosaur wrote:
I've heard that there's an intent to focus more on demons than the Yozis that they compose.  It's off to a good start, too, since Octavian is "only" a second circle, but can potentially dismember Ahlat, who is a directional war god.

This is what I'm hoping for too.  More focus on Liger and Erembour and less on Malfeas and the Ebon Dragon will work better for the game, I think.  I like the Yozis better when they're weird landscapes and strange weather than when they're "people."

I basically want more focus on Ligier, less on Malfeas and more on the Ebon Dragon. I find that some of the yozi work better as characters and others work better at landscapes/features, even though they're all both.
Take Adorjan; when I was getting into Exalted lore I didn't even know she had other souls. I thought she was just the silent wind. But that was okay, cause the silent wind was hilariously awesome and has a really meaningful explanation behind it. 
Or Ebon Dragon. He's Aku. Aku needs victims and minions. His souls are his minions and everyone is his victim. I like having people interact with ED himself as he's a really fun [awful awful awful person] character. And if done right he straddles the line between funny saturday morning cartoon villain and legitimately terrifying the way few others can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7N67hn0TlA
I don't necessarily want less of Malfeas, It's just that he is such a big deal that I feel he should be treated as such. Let him be the glorious devil tyrant he used to be, not nuclear Karkat.

See that's the disconnect with me.  If you can boil the Ebon Dragon down to a "person" then it feels like he ceases to be a Yozi and simultaneously removed the point of having Third Circles from the game.  Third Circle Demons are there to both be hilariously powerful super villains (or whatever) while still being people, while the Yozis are there to be cosmic forces.  If the Yozis are people you can interact with, then what's the point of the Third Circle demons?
I'm not saying we need to remove Aku from the game, mind you.  One of the Ebon Dragon's Third Circle Souls could be a Demon Dragon with shapeshifting and shadow tentacles and basically everything that was fun about the 2e Ebon Dragon, but compressed into something that's actually supposed to be a person, instead of a force or corporation.  Alternately, we grab one of Szorny's Third Circles and make them like that.  Either way.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

22 Oct 2016, 09:59

BrilliantRain wrote:

See that's the disconnect with me.  If you can boil the Ebon Dragon down to a "person" then it feels like he ceases to be a Yozi and simultaneously removed the point of having Third Circles from the game.  Third Circle Demons are there to both be hilariously powerful super villains (or whatever) while still being people, while the Yozis are there to be cosmic forces.  If the Yozis are people you can interact with, then what's the point of the Third Circle demons?
I'm not saying we need to remove Aku from the game, mind you.  One of the Ebon Dragon's Third Circle Souls could be a Demon Dragon with shapeshifting and shadow tentacles and basically everything that was fun about the 2e Ebon Dragon, but compressed into something that's actually supposed to be a person, instead of a force or corporation.  Alternately, we grab one of Szorny's Third Circles and make them like that.  Either way.

I'd go for Szoreny, personally.  He doesn't have much in the way of demons listed as-is, and goes in for the nemesis role a lot better, given his Act of Villainy from the prior edition.
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

25 Oct 2016, 00:21

B u t I find Szonery soooo boooring. I'm sorry but I do, and I don't know why. He just feels bland to me. :/
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Re: Yozi Theme Contention

26 Oct 2016, 12:41

GentlemanBesly wrote:
B u t I find Szonery soooo boooring. I'm sorry but I do, and I don't know why. He just feels bland to me. :/

Ebby kind of stole everyone's thunder in 2e.  All of the Yozis except him ended up being pretty pathetic, because RotSE presents him as having outwitted everyone, gotten out on his own, and going on to become Sauron if no one stops him.  With that kind of lopsided wordcount dedication, no one else is going to be able to get anything in to say otherwise.  Besides, Szoreny will probably perk up if you give him the "constant betrayer" shtick, since he already has the nemesis frenemy one going on to complement it.
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