Third Edition

Moderator: BrilliantRain

 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

03 May 2009, 05:02

So, I like hacking Exalted, as is known. Here's one of my favourites. :)

I posted this hack on the rpg.net forums earlier this month, this is a cleaned up version of that first draft. The idea behind this hack is that things that are necessary should not cost limited character resources to acquire as a tax, and that things that are boring and serve as prerequisites should follow the same principles. Using this hack will raise the starting competency of all Exalted (compared to mortals) by a non-trivial amount, but relative power balance between Exalted splats should remain identical, as the benefit is equally shared among all playable Exalted types.

The Combo hack is implemented to remove the reflexive defenses XP tax imposed on every Celestial Combo. Depending on the Exalt type, this surcharge may easily be non-negligible, discouraging the construction of Combos until the desired defenses have been purchased, and discouraging the construction of multiple different Combos due to the fact that each Combo should ideally contain the character's defensive Charm array.

The Excellencies/General Charms hack is to give characters wider ability to use Essence at character creation, and ensure that most character experience directed at purchasing magical abilities goes towards purchasing interesting things rather than dice-adder Charms, which are simultaneously the bedrock of Exalted superhuman capability and the most boring part of it.

The Ox-Body hack is to give characters more durability without requiring investment into Ox-Body. I have long maintained that Ox-Body is in fact a terrible charm, but as it is quite in-theme for the Chosen to have stronger constitutions and not everybody goes for an absolute-effect defense straight off, I have bundled it into the generic list of Exaltation advantages, to go along with the Excellency stuff.


General Hacks

Celestial Charm Usage: For Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, Abyssal and Infernal Exalted, the use of Reflexive Charms does not count towards the character's Charm per action limit. She may still only use one Simple, Supplemental or Extra Action Charm without a Combo.

Terrestrial Charm Usage: For Dragon-Blooded, the use of Reflexive and Supplemental Charms does not count towards the character's Charm per action limit. She may still only use one Simple or Extra Action Charm without a Combo.

Ox-Body Technique: All Exalted automatically have as many copies of this Charm as their Permanent Essence. It may not be purchased any other way. Infernal Exalted receive Hardened Devil Body instead.

Stunting: A character may stunt once per flurry of actions, in which case the stunt bonus applies to every action in that flurry, and she receives the stunt reward if any single action in that flurry succeeds. She may stunt defense once in response to an enemy's flurry of actions, in which case the stunt bonus applies against every action in that flurry, and she receives the stunt reward if any single defense in that flurry succeeds.


First up, the Solars, and an altered Third Excellency.

Specific Hacks: Solar Exalted

Replacement: While using this hack, all published Solar General Charms are deleted and replaced with the Charms detailed below. Any Solar Charm that requires an Excellency now requires Solar Essence Overwhelming. Any Solar Charm that requires two Excellencies now only requires Solar Essence Overwhelming.
Solar Excellence: All Solar General Charms are automatically learned when their prerequisites are met, requiring no expenditure of experience points. This means all Solar Exalted automatically gain the Charms Solar Essence Overwhelming and Solar Essence Triumphant at character creation, and these Charms do not count against the character's starting allotment of Charm slots.

Solar Essence Overwhelming
Cost: 1m per die; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Reflexive (Step 1 attacker or Step 2 defender)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: None

Solars with this Charm are known for their moments of brilliance. The Exalt's player can invoke this Charm when making a roll based on any Ability they have at a rating above 0. This Charm then adds one die to that roll for each mote spent, up to a maximum of (Attribute + Ability) extra dice. Characters can also use this Charm to enhance unrolled uses of any Ability. When enhancing static values, every two dice purchased with this Charm raises the static value by one. Static values may not be increased by more than half the relevant (Attribute + Ability). Refer to the Charms and Pools sidebar in Exalted, page 185.

Solar Essence Triumphant
Cost: None; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: Solar Essence Overwhelming

Solars with this Charm are known for their unwavering perfection. This Charm improves Solar Essence Overwhelming, allowing the Solar's player to trade dice purchased with Solar Essence Overwhelming for automatic successes, at the ratio of two purchased dice for one automatic success. She may not convert dice other than those purchased through Solar Essence Overwhelming.

Solar Essence Resurgent
Cost: 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive (Step 3 attacker or Step 6 defender)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: Solar Essence Triumphant

Solars with this Charm deny failure. This Charm allows the Exalt to spend one Willpower after making a roll. She may then make the roll again, using the new result if she prefers it. When used to enhance static values, this Charm increases the effective (Attribute + Ability) rating by (Ability).

Infinite Solar Mastery
Cost: 2m+, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Scene
Prerequisites: Solar Essence Overwhelming

The Solar Exalted are infinite wells of talent. Every two motes committed to this Charm reduces the mote cost of Solar Essence Overwhelming by one mote, to a minimum of 0. The discount applies to any given roll as a whole, rather than individual invocations of Solar Essence Overwhelming. At Essence 3, the maximum discount this Charm can provide is equal to the character's Permanent Essence in motes. At Essence 4 and above, this limit is removed.

Perfected Essence Flow
Cost: None; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: Infinite Essence Mastery

The Essence of the Solar Exalted flows through them and brings their intentions and actions into perfect harmony. Purchasing this Charm allows the Solar to invoke Solar Essence Overwhelming and Infinite Solar Mastery as anima abilities rather than Charms. As such, they are explicitly immune to effects which disrupt Charms, and may be used in situations where Charms may not normally be activated. In addition, the Duration of Infinite Solar Mastery is extended to Indefinite. The discount provided by Infinite Solar Mastery explicitly continues to apply to Solar Essence Overwhelming.


Now for the Abyssals, which are simple...

Specific Hacks: Abyssal Exalted

Duplication: Follow all rules for the Solar Exalted hack above, except as noted below. Replace all instances of the word Solar with the word Abyssal, and the word Perfected with Necrotic. In addition, the following Charm is added to the list of available General Charms.

Ravening Mouth of Oblivion
Cost: 3m; Mins: Any Ability 4, Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Scene
Prerequisites: Abyssal Essence Overwhelming

Touched by the endless hunger of Oblivion, Abyssal Exalted can learn to extend their animas through their mastery of Abilities, drinking Essence from the suffering they inflict. Whenever the deathknight takes an action or activates a Charm from any Ability they have rated at 4 dots or above, she regains one mote for every level of damage the action or Charm inflicts to sentient beings as if she had bitten the victims directly. Indirect damage to that target also awards motes, such as health levels paid as part of the costs of defensive Charms. Abyssals cannot use this Charm to feed through the effects of spells or from ongoing damage after the initial application. The Abyssal can never gain more than 20 motes during a single one of her actions from any combination of Charms including Ravening Mouth of Oblivion.


And the Lunars, which are equally simple.

Specific Hacks: Lunar Exalted

Duplication: Follow all rules for the Solar Exalted hack above, except as noted below. Replace all instances of the word Solar with the word Lunar. Replace all instances of the value (Attribute + Ability) with (Attribute), and any instances of the value (Ability) with (Attribute). Lunars are also exempt from the rule requiring Abilities to be greater than 0 for Essence Overwhelming. In addition, remove the Charms Infinite Mastery and Essence Flow, and add the Charms below to the list of available General Charms.

Instinctive Lunar Unity
Cost: 2m+, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Scene
Prerequisites: Lunar Essence Overwhelming

Lunar Exalted find ways to become perfectly in touch with their natures. Every two motes spent when activating this Charm reduces the mote cost of Lunar Essence Overwhelming by one mote, to a minimum of 0. The discount applies to any given roll as a whole, rather than individual invocations of Solar Essence Overwhelming. The maximum discount this Charm can provide is equal to the character's Permanent Essence.

Flawless Lunar Focus
Cost: None; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Lunar Essence Overwhelming

Lunars are naturally instinctive creatures. Purchasing this Charm, the character becomes able to tap into a more specific instinctive mastery over the relevant Attribute. Purchase of this Charm allows the purchase of Attribute Specialties and provides one free, which must be from one of the Lunar's Caste or Favoured Attributes. Rules for Attribute Specialties are detailed on page 142 of Manual of Exalted Power: Lunars.


And the Infernals.

Specific Hacks: Infernal Exalted

Infernal Excellence: All Infernal General Charms of their favoured Yozis are automatically learned when their prerequisites are met, requiring no expenditure of experience points. This means all Infernal Exalted automatically gain the Charms [Yozi] Essence Overwhelming and [Yozi] Essence Triumphant at character creation for two Yozis, and these Charms do not count against the character's starting allotment of Charm slots. In addition, the Yozi Excellencies no longer impose an XP surcharge when the Infernal raises her Permanent Essence.


Now for the DBs...

Specific Hacks: Dragon-Blooded

Duplication: Follow all rules for the Solar Exalted hack above, except as noted below. Replace all instances of the word Solar with the word Terrestrial. Replace all instances of the value (Attribute + Ability) with (Ability + Specialty). Reduce the cost of Terrestrial Essence Overwhelming to 1 mote per 2 dice. In addition, remove the Charms Essence Triumphant, Infinite Mastery and Essence Flow, and add the Charm below to the list of available General Charms.

Elemental Reinforcement
Cost: 1m per 2 dice + 1m per subject, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Touch
Duration: One scene
Prerequisites: Terrestrial Essence Overwhelming

The greatest strength of the Dragon-Blooded is their capacity for teamwork. This Charm allows the Dragon-Blooded to grant her allies a portion of her own strength, if only temporarily. A Dragon-Blood with this Charm can improve the Ability ratings of up to her Essence in allies up to her own ratings for brief periods of time.

The Dragon-Blood must spend one mote for every ally to be augmented and one mote for every two dice that are added to each person’s rating in relevant Abilities. The Charm has two limitations. First, no ally’s Ability ratings can be raised above the Ability ratings of the Exalt who invokes this Charm. Second, no ally’s Ability ratings can be increased to more than twice its normal rating. Therefore, the ally must have at least one dot in the Ability for this Charm to affect him at all. All allies to be affected must hold hands at the time of the Charm’s activation.


The Sidereals are changed more, thanks to their book.

Specific Hacks: Sidereal Exalted

Duplication: Follow all rules for the Solar Exalted hack above, except as noted below. Replace all instances of the word Solar with the word Sidereal. Replace all instances of the value (Attribute + Ability) or (Ability) with (Essence + Internal Penalty). In addition, remove the Charms Essence Triumphant, Essence Resurgent, Infinite Mastery and Essence Flow, and add the Charms below to the list of available General Charms.
Dice Adder Cap: The dice-adder cap for Sidereal Charms is explicitly (Essence + applicable Internal Penalty).

Sidereal Essence Overwhelming
Cost: 1m per die; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Reflexive (Step 1 attacker or Step 2 defender)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: None

Sidereals with this Charm are known for their moments of brilliance. The Exalt's player can invoke this Charm when making a roll based on any Ability they have at a rating above 0. This Charm then adds one die to that roll for each mote spent, up to a maximum of (Essence + applicable Internal Penalty) extra dice. Characters can also use this Charm to enhance unrolled uses of any Ability. When enhancing static values, every two dice purchased with this Charm raises the static value by one. Static values may not be increased by more than half the relevant (Essence + applicable Internal Penalty).

Sidereal Essence Auspicious
Cost: (2m per TN reduction); Mins: Essence 2; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: Sidereal Essence Overwhelming

Sidereals with this Charm are known for phenomenal luck. This Charm upgrades Sidereal Essence Overwhelming, allowing the Sidereal to spend motes altering the target number of her rolls as a separate function of the Charm. Every two motes spent on this function reduces the target number by 1. When used on a static value such as DV, this Charm increases that value by 1 for every 10 dice in the static pool calculation at TN 6, 1 for every 5 dice at TN 5 and 1 for every 3 dice at TN 4. This increase is still subject to the limitation on Charms adding to static values (see Exalted, page 185).

Target numbers may not be reduced below 4. Attempting to do so forces an auspicious success, converting all dice in the pool to automatic successes or setting a static value to its maximum Charm-aided value, at the cost of 1 Willpower. Altering target numbers does not count towards the dice-adder limit.

Propitious Sidereal Alignment
Cost: 2m+, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: Scene
Prerequisites: Sidereal Essence Auspicious

By tuning her anima to resonate with the Loom of Fate, a Sidereal can use her Essence with greater efficiency. Every two motes committed to this Charm reduces the mote cost of Sidereal Essence Overwhelming by one mote, to a minimum of 0. The discount applies to any given roll as a whole, rather than individual invocations of Sidereal Essence Overwhelming. At Essence 3, the maximum discount is equal to the character's Permanent Essence. At Essence 4, this limit is removed.
Last edited by Jon Chung on 10 Aug 2009, 21:47, edited 23 times in total.
 
User avatar
Nizkateth
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5301
Joined: 18 Sep 2005, 17:36
Title: That Thing
Exalt: Fair Folk
Fighting Style: SAN-blasting
Artifact: Dividing By 0
Location: Where parallel lines intersect
Contact:

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

03 May 2009, 11:31

Overall, I think these look good. Anything that reduces the general quantity of charms needed to be useful, as well as raising general competance of characters I think tends to be a good thing.
"There was a young lady named bright,
Who could travel much faster than light,
She went out one day,
In a relative way,
And came back the previous night."

Love is never having to say you're sorry. Power is being able to kill anyone who asks for an apology.
Jaito: "Necromancy is like Linux, but even less sociable"
<Logos> The sugar is Asian people.
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, watch it! I'm huge."
Hamster Style / Kitten Style / Hit 'Em With a Rock Style / Newest Icon Full Pic
 
User avatar
BrilliantRain
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5362
Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 14:50
Title: The City of Mod
Exalt: Alchemical
Fighting Style: Primordial-Machine Weaving
Artifact: Eye of Autochthon
Location: Nurad
Contact:

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

03 May 2009, 15:50

I rather like it too, but I think there are a couple issues that could use some additional explication. For example, if I read the Lunar hack correctly, every Lunar automatically gets three specialty dice is every attribute upon taking essence 3.
Avatar by Girl Genius

Mod Text is in Green

Do you have enough Tools, King of All Craftsmen?
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

04 May 2009, 03:47

Every Lunar gets Flawless Lunar Focus at Essence 3 automatically, and one Attribute Specialty for free with the Charm. Any more have to be bought up with XP. There aren't nine separate versions of the Charm anymore, after all, only one, which opens up the capability for all Attributes. :)

Edited to improve clarity.
 
User avatar
Tornado Wolf
Essence 6
Essence 6
Posts: 2345
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 15:08
Title: Retired Fanatic
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Relentless assault
Artifact: Lunatic Fang - the Moonsilver Anyweapon
Location: Sore wa...

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

04 May 2009, 09:03

Jon Chung wrote:
There aren't nine separate versions of the Charm anymore, after all, only one

Oh. Yeah, that's better than suddenly getting nine of them. (though I wouldn't have objected to getting that windfall, myself)
Do not confuse the inexcusable for the unforgivable. If a crime can be excused, then there was nothing to forgive in the first place. It is only when a crime is inexcusable that forgiveness is even an issue. And at that point, forgive. Forgive, if only because it sets you free. Bitterness never produced anything sweet.
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 01:50

Corrected an error in the Sidereal block. As the least polished of the Manuals of Exalted Power, I find myself having to balance instead of convert. Altered Sidereal Essence Auspicious and Propitious Sidereal Alignment again in order to more accurately recreate the feel of their resource management minigame in 1E.

If anyone sees any egregious mechanical snafus in my Charms or rule hacks, please point them out!
 
Laundreu
Essence 1
Essence 1
Posts: 19
Joined: 25 Aug 2007, 23:12
Title: Rampaging Hippo King
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Martial Arts
Artifact: Claws of the Silver Moon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 13:54

Why is it that you have the Sidereal version of I(A)M removing all limits at Essence 4, but the Lunar equivalent keeping its' limits?
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 18:49

Lunars get other ways to boost themselves. With their ability to monkey with Dexterity (and other attributes) and with Claws of the Silver Moon giving them the highest accuracy uberdamage piercing weapon in the game, their Excellency discount should be the worst of the three Celestial Exalted.
 
User avatar
Dinosaur
Essence 10
Essence 10
Posts: 10456
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 00:46
Title: Social Justice Kaiju
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Natural Weapons
Artifact: Audient Quill
Location: Most Emphatically NOT in the Wyld

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 19:35

Jon Chung wrote:
Lunars get other ways to boost themselves. With their ability to monkey with Dexterity (and other attributes) and with Claws of the Silver Moon giving them the highest accuracy uberdamage piercing weapon in the game, their Excellency discount should be the worst of the three Celestial Exalted.


Using Dexterity Excellencies to add to both CotSM and the attack pool edges close to, if it already isn't, two activations of the same Charm for the same instant.
I write stories. No, really.
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 20:02

Dinosaur wrote:
Using Dexterity Excellencies to add to both CotSM and the attack pool edges close to, if it already isn't, two activations of the same Charm for the same instant.


I'm not even referring to that trick, which, while technically legal, is the sort of thing GMs shut down if they understand the system. The simple fact that you get +7 Accuracy on CotSM for having Dex 6 DBT and the Acc += Dex function on CotSM is enough to keep Lunars competitive. Or superior. See comparison below.

Ess 2 Solar with Grand Goremaul and 1W2B: +13 base pool, +3 weapon, +1 1W2B. Total 17.
Ess 2 Lunar with CotSM in DBT with RLF: +14 base pool, +3 weapon, +(2) RLF. Total 19.

Ess 3 Solar with Grand Goremaul with Infinite (3) and 1W2B: +13 base pool, +3 weapon, +1 1W2B, +3 excellency. Total 20.
Ess 3 Lunar with CotSM (Dex) in DBT with RLF and Instinctive (3): +14 base pool, +7 weapon, +3 excellency, +(2) RLF. Total 26.

Ess 4 Solar with Grand Goremaul with Infinite (10) and 1W2B: +13 base pool, +3 weapon, +1 1W2B, +10 excellency. Total 27.
Ess 4 Lunar with CotSM (Dex) in DBT with RLF and Instinctive (4): +14 base pool, +7 weapon, +4 excellency, +(2) RLF. Total 27.

Lunars are better at accuracy until Essence 4, when Solars catch up. They don't need an uncapped Instinctive Unity.

edit: If the Solar's using a +10 Accuracy/+10 Defense pair of Glorious Solar Sabres, then this changes, but that's dodgy on the same level as doubledipping Attribute Excellency efficiency through Claws of the Silver Moon. :)
Last edited by Jon Chung on 05 May 2009, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
NateDojo
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 565
Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 23:31
Title: Quiet Pool
Exalt: Sidereal
Fighting Style: Optimistic Primate Technique
Artifact: The Omniwheel of Speedy Travels
Contact:

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 20:17

I don't know. That seems like an awful lot of excellence to spread around. I might think that it would be cool if the Exalted only got it for free in favored/caste abilities or attributes. That's what most people (in my experience) buy Excellencies in anyway, and that should be where Charm focus is.
Image
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

05 May 2009, 20:22

Your change simply removes the ability to go "oh, I need to roll some dice for an Ability I don't normally use, so I spend a few motes to give myself a better shot", on the general range of doubling a lowball dicepool of 2-6 dice. Something that minor as a general perk of Exaltation is something I'm quite comfortable giving out, but I like broadly competent characters. Exalted's default setup encourages fanatic specialization. :)

edit: Especially since we now have Epic Zeal of [Virtue] (plus Phoenix Renewal Tactic...). Five autosuccesses for a Willpower point on any roll if you can justify a Virtue channel, and if you stunt you get the channel back. Requires a Virtue at 5 and two charms in Integrity, not counting the Excellency. While this isn't a completely trivial investment, I used that as the baseline for 'can add to any roll for about one 2d-stunt's resources', and a couple charms is not much compared to what I'm already giving away, heh.
 
User avatar
Dinosaur
Essence 10
Essence 10
Posts: 10456
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 00:46
Title: Social Justice Kaiju
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Natural Weapons
Artifact: Audient Quill
Location: Most Emphatically NOT in the Wyld

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 01:32

Jon Chung wrote:
I'm not even referring to that trick, which, while technically legal, is the sort of thing GMs shut down if they understand the system. The simple fact that you get +7 Accuracy on CotSM for having Dex 6 DBT and the Acc += Dex function on CotSM is enough to keep Lunars competitive. Or superior. See comparison below.

Ess 2 Solar with Grand Goremaul and 1W2B: +13 base pool, +3 weapon, +1 1W2B. Total 17.
Ess 2 Lunar with CotSM in DBT with RLF: +14 base pool, +3 weapon, +(2) RLF. Total 19.

Ess 3 Solar with Grand Goremaul with Infinite (3) and 1W2B: +13 base pool, +3 weapon, +1 1W2B, +3 excellency. Total 20.
Ess 3 Lunar with CotSM (Dex) in DBT with RLF and Instinctive (3): +14 base pool, +7 weapon, +3 excellency, +(2) RLF. Total 26.

Ess 4 Solar with Grand Goremaul with Infinite (10) and 1W2B: +13 base pool, +3 weapon, +1 1W2B, +10 excellency. Total 27.
Ess 4 Lunar with CotSM (Dex) in DBT with RLF and Instinctive (4): +14 base pool, +7 weapon, +4 excellency, +(2) RLF. Total 27.

Lunars are better at accuracy until Essence 4, when Solars catch up. They don't need an uncapped Instinctive Unity.

edit: If the Solar's using a +10 Accuracy/+10 Defense pair of Glorious Solar Sabres, then this changes, but that's dodgy on the same level as doubledipping Attribute Excellency efficiency through Claws of the Silver Moon. :)


I would say that it had more to do with Celestial thematics than the above myself, but just as long as it's not the Excellency blitz. That said, I don't think that CotSM should dominate the discussion, because it's not actually a guaranteed purchase due to pesky little concepts getting in the way of things.
I write stories. No, really.
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 01:55

Dinosaur wrote:
I would say that it had more to do with Celestial thematics than the above myself, but just as long as it's not the Excellency blitz. That said, I don't think that CotSM should dominate the discussion, because it's not actually a guaranteed purchase due to pesky little concepts getting in the way of things.


I tend to balance crunch with the assumption that characters are constructed on system-optimal lines, since my usual gaming group does this with gleeful abandon.

Anyway, CotSM is unavoidable in discussions of power much like Infinite Mastery or Seven Shadow Evasion is - it allows me to assume a certain upper limit to operate around. Generally, I don't see an issue with people building under the upper limit for thematic purposes (like not taking DBT, for example), but I do actively want to prevent people going over it.

Also, note that comparing Lunars and Sidereals directly is currently impossible due to the fact that Sidereals do not have a decent 2E Charmset. Lunars have a relatively bad Excellency improvement because they have an effective way to get around that little problem through keying Accuracy off their already excellent Dexterity and through Relentless Lunar Fury (an Ess4 Lunar with a sword is only three dice behind an Ess4 Solar with a sword, for example, due to having that bonus success and one point higher Dexterity). I can't assume Sidereals have similar tricks, therefore, I use a pseudo-Solar template.

A couple of the ideas I was tossing around before deciding to clone Infinite Solar Mastery was shifting it to (Essence + highest College) limit at Essence 4 or (Essence x2), but since that would only degrade their maximum discounted pool by 1 or 2 dice, I decided not to bother, especially since most of the benefit comes from the TN reduction and Sidereals have a severe problem with their tiny mote pools.
Last edited by Jon Chung on 06 May 2009, 03:24, edited 7 times in total.
 
Laundreu
Essence 1
Essence 1
Posts: 19
Joined: 25 Aug 2007, 23:12
Title: Rampaging Hippo King
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Martial Arts
Artifact: Claws of the Silver Moon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 02:05

Does your hack preclude purchasing Ox-Bodies, or could I have a theoretical Stamina 5, Essence 5 Lunar with a health-level spread of one -0, two -1s, forty-two -2s, one -4, one Incapacitated, and twenty-five Dying levels?
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 02:09

Laundreu wrote:
Does your hack preclude purchasing Ox-Bodies, or could I have a theoretical Stamina 5, Essence 5 Lunar with a health-level spread of one -0, two -1s, forty-two -2s, one -4, one Incapacitated, and twenty-five Dying levels?


Yes, it's intended to replace the normal method of buying Ox-Bodies. Nice catch, I'll edit that for clarity.

Might be easier to say "You automatically possess as many copies of this Charm as you qualify for", since everything else works that way, I might as well go for mechanical symmetry! Hmm. Yeah, done.
 
User avatar
Asmodai
Essence 6
Essence 6
Posts: 2124
Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 18:26
Title: Misinformation Minister
Exalt: Sidereal
Fighting Style: Charcoal March of Spiders
Artifact: Song of the Falling Stars
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 05:55

Hmmm, the DB's seem way weaker to me (as a functional charm set) then the 2E Siddies.
I'm a Sexy Shoeless God Of War!
What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.
 
User avatar
Dinosaur
Essence 10
Essence 10
Posts: 10456
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 00:46
Title: Social Justice Kaiju
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Natural Weapons
Artifact: Audient Quill
Location: Most Emphatically NOT in the Wyld

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 11:10

Jon Chung wrote:

I tend to balance crunch with the assumption that characters are constructed on system-optimal lines, since my usual gaming group does this with gleeful abandon.

Anyway, CotSM is unavoidable in discussions of power much like Infinite Mastery or Seven Shadow Evasion is - it allows me to assume a certain upper limit to operate around. Generally, I don't see an issue with people building under the upper limit for thematic purposes (like not taking DBT, for example), but I do actively want to prevent people going over it.

Also, note that comparing Lunars and Sidereals directly is currently impossible due to the fact that Sidereals do not have a decent 2E Charmset. Lunars have a relatively bad Excellency improvement because they have an effective way to get around that little problem through keying Accuracy off their already excellent Dexterity and through Relentless Lunar Fury (an Ess4 Lunar with a sword is only three dice behind an Ess4 Solar with a sword, for example, due to having that bonus success and one point higher Dexterity). I can't assume Sidereals have similar tricks, therefore, I use a pseudo-Solar template.

A couple of the ideas I was tossing around before deciding to clone Infinite Solar Mastery was shifting it to (Essence + highest College) limit at Essence 4 or (Essence x2), but since that would only degrade their maximum discounted pool by 1 or 2 dice, I decided not to bother, especially since most of the benefit comes from the TN reduction and Sidereals have a severe problem with their tiny mote pools.


Have you accounted for the possible use of Sidereal Shell Games in the Sidereal Charms, then?
I write stories. No, really.
 
User avatar
Nizkateth
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5301
Joined: 18 Sep 2005, 17:36
Title: That Thing
Exalt: Fair Folk
Fighting Style: SAN-blasting
Artifact: Dividing By 0
Location: Where parallel lines intersect
Contact:

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 11:14

Jon Chung wrote:
Might be easier to say "You automatically possess as many copies of this Charm as you qualify for", since everything else works that way, I might as well go for mechanical symmetry! Hmm. Yeah, done.

I'm a bit concerned that this might make Resistance (for ability-based exalts) a bit too useful, especially when favored. For 5bp, get +15 health levels as a solar. For a lunar, just spend 4 of your attribute dots at chargen and have +20 health levels.
I was a bit more in favor of the [Essence] Ox-Bodies automatically for free myself. Just chiming in a concern.
"There was a young lady named bright,
Who could travel much faster than light,
She went out one day,
In a relative way,
And came back the previous night."

Love is never having to say you're sorry. Power is being able to kill anyone who asks for an apology.
Jaito: "Necromancy is like Linux, but even less sociable"
<Logos> The sugar is Asian people.
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, watch it! I'm huge."
Hamster Style / Kitten Style / Hit 'Em With a Rock Style / Newest Icon Full Pic
 
Laundreu
Essence 1
Essence 1
Posts: 19
Joined: 25 Aug 2007, 23:12
Title: Rampaging Hippo King
Exalt: Lunar
Fighting Style: Martial Arts
Artifact: Claws of the Silver Moon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 16:51

I'm not terribly concerned, personally; Health Levels simply don't matter from a mechanical point of view, beyond 'a little more able to survive a glancing blow from a semi-capable combatant'. Sids like 'em for powering Prayer Strip charms I think (those are the ones that often cost a Health Level, no?), Lunars like 'em if they're Soak Monsters, and DBs like them because of a weak and limited charmset preventing the use of motes-as-health like the real Exalts do. Spirits of all stripes fall in with the DBs, generally.
 
User avatar
Asmodai
Essence 6
Essence 6
Posts: 2124
Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 18:26
Title: Misinformation Minister
Exalt: Sidereal
Fighting Style: Charcoal March of Spiders
Artifact: Song of the Falling Stars
Location: Chiaroscuro

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 16:57

Being able to take 5 times as much damage as anyone else is quite a big benefit. The health levels make a huge difference between a painful death and just another scar.
I'm a Sexy Shoeless God Of War!
What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.
 
User avatar
Nizkateth
Essence 8
Essence 8
Posts: 5301
Joined: 18 Sep 2005, 17:36
Title: That Thing
Exalt: Fair Folk
Fighting Style: SAN-blasting
Artifact: Dividing By 0
Location: Where parallel lines intersect
Contact:

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 17:02

I'm just concerned that the difference (at least for say, a Solar) between 7 health levels and 22 health levels is 5BP spent on one ability.
"There was a young lady named bright,
Who could travel much faster than light,
She went out one day,
In a relative way,
And came back the previous night."

Love is never having to say you're sorry. Power is being able to kill anyone who asks for an apology.
Jaito: "Necromancy is like Linux, but even less sociable"
<Logos> The sugar is Asian people.
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, watch it! I'm huge."
Hamster Style / Kitten Style / Hit 'Em With a Rock Style / Newest Icon Full Pic
 
User avatar
NateDojo
Essence 5
Essence 5
Posts: 565
Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 23:31
Title: Quiet Pool
Exalt: Sidereal
Fighting Style: Optimistic Primate Technique
Artifact: The Omniwheel of Speedy Travels
Contact:

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 19:30

Damage absorption certainly does matter, as others have said. It can make you three times more resilient! Well, for Sidereals not so much. I think their Stellar Resilience (just made that up ;) ) only adds one -0. Maybe one -0, one -1 would be more fair.

Regardless, I suppose if your group is set on powergaming then these additions would help a lot, but I think that you might just consider starting them at an advanced age. With the trend that this system sets, I think you might get bored with the game rather quickly.

The reason being an Excellency provides a huge advantage to a Celestial (or even Terrestrial) over their mortal counterparts. That huge advantage only costs a few experience points, which have to go somewhere. Earning and purchasing things should give you a mild sense of accomplishment.

I guess what I'm saying is that you might consider tweaking the age-experience table rather than how Charms are earned/bought.
Image
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 21:55

NateDojo wrote:
Damage absorption certainly does matter, as others have said. It can make you three times more resilient! Well, for Sidereals not so much. I think their Stellar Resilience (just made that up ;) ) only adds one -0. Maybe one -0, one -1 would be more fair.


Your health track is really your mote pool. Once you run out of motes, if you have 22 HLs vs 7, all that means is that you need to be hit two or three more times with that Grand Weapon the enemy's packing. For the investment of 5 charms worth of XP, that isn't very good, especially when you can replicate that benefit for less investment by picking up one copy of Immanent Solar Glory (or the Lunar/Abyssal versions) to give yourself another ~3 uses of your PD, or five shots of Iron Skin Concentration.

This is why I give it out for free. It's fundamentally not too important in terms of Exalted Kombat, but it is thematically cool to point at your character sheet and go "haha, I have 22 HLs to your puny mortal 7!" - it promotes a visceral sense of superiority, heh.

edit: To illustrate, let's say I create a Str 4, Dex 5 Solar with Melee 5 (Big Hammer +3), using an orichalcum Grand Goremaul. His minimum raw damage on a successful hit is 21 lethal piercing. If I'm wearing an armour with equal Artifact value, like a 12L orichalcum Reinforced Breastplate, and have a Sta of 4, I have 8 soak against that blow, and he rolls 13 damage dice, producing 5.2 health levels on average. Keeping in mind that this is assuming absolute minimum 1-success hits with no spillover successes, if he hits me with a 6-8 swing Iron Whirlwind Attack and I can't spend motes to survive, whether I have 7 HLs or 22 is irrelevant, I'm dead anyway.

NateDojo wrote:
Regardless, I suppose if your group is set on powergaming then these additions would help a lot, but I think that you might just consider starting them at an advanced age. With the trend that this system sets, I think you might get bored with the game rather quickly.

The reason being an Excellency provides a huge advantage to a Celestial (or even Terrestrial) over their mortal counterparts. That huge advantage only costs a few experience points, which have to go somewhere. Earning and purchasing things should give you a mild sense of accomplishment.

I guess what I'm saying is that you might consider tweaking the age-experience table rather than how Charms are earned/bought.


You're missing the point of this hack. Remember, the core purpose is to eliminate spending XP on things that are boring but necessary / not worth buying in order to improve general competency for Exalts across the board, and buying Excellencies for non-favoured, non-Caste Abilities with 1-3 dots in them just for the purposes of crushing mortals certainly falls into that category.

Simply throwing XP at a character is not an elegant solution - the system encourages this XP to be dumped right into Permanent Essence and Caste/Favoured Charms, not be spent on buying up peripheral Excellencies and Ox-Bodies. I want characters to have them, so... free stuff.
Last edited by Jon Chung on 06 May 2009, 22:26, edited 8 times in total.
 
Jon Chung
Essence 3
Essence 3
Topic Author
Posts: 127
Joined: 30 Apr 2009, 04:45
Title: Bitter Angry Yozi
Exalt: Demon

Re: System Hack: Reducing XP Sinks

06 May 2009, 22:03

Dinosaur wrote:
Have you accounted for the possible use of Sidereal Shell Games in the Sidereal Charms, then?


Shaping effect. Too situational for me to assume reliability. Plus, World-Shaping Artistic Vision in 1E is really different from World-Shaping Artistic Vision in 2E, and I can't be sure which version any given GM using Sidereals is going to use. :(

Nizkateth wrote:
I'm a bit concerned that this might make Resistance (for ability-based exalts) a bit too useful, especially when favored. For 5bp, get +15 health levels as a solar. For a lunar, just spend 4 of your attribute dots at chargen and have +20 health levels.
I was a bit more in favor of the [Essence] Ox-Bodies automatically for free myself. Just chiming in a concern.


Hm, you have a point. Alright, reverted.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests